Let's Talk Loyalty #363: Leading Loyalty Insights from the USA
Listen to hear Incendio‘s Jenn McMillen, and her insights on emerging marketing trends that offer exciting possibilities to drive innovation in our loyalty programs.
Just before today's episode, I wanted to mention that this show is proudly
sponsored by the International Law & Tea Awards.
The most respected and prestigious awards program in the global loyalty
industry,
which recognizes achievements, innovation and loyalty best practices worldwide.
The awards are now open for entries, inviting you as loyalty leaders around the
world
to showcase your achievements in our industry and gain international
recognition for your program.
Learn more at www.internationallawaltyawards.com
Entries close December 13, 2024.
Welcome to Let's Talk Loyalty, an industry podcast for loyalty marketing
professionals.
I'm your host Paula Thomas, and if you work in loyalty marketing,
join me every week to learn the latest ideas from loyalty specialists around
the world.
This show is brought to you by the loyalty and awards conference,
the leading annual event for loyalty professionals in the travel industry.
Make sure to join us this year from the 9th to the 11th of October in Rio de
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for the perfect mix of inspiring content and exciting awards.
Check out [email protected] for more information and to register.
Hello and welcome to this episode of Let's Talk Loyalty.
My guest today is Jen McMillan, a nationally recognized and award-winning
relationship marketing expert in the United States, whose agency, Incendio, has
created or managed loyalty programs for brands like NASCAR, PetSmart, GNC and Chipotle.
Now many of you know that I love learning about emerging trends in marketing,
as they offer exciting possibilities for us to drive innovation in our loyalty
programs.
In today's conversation, Jen shares some powerful ideas
around the emergence of some new demographic trends, the business of live
shopping,
and also the power of Book Talk.
And she explains why these trends are important both in the United States
market,
as well as for all of you listening around the world.
I hope you enjoy my conversation with Jen McMillan from Incendio.
So, Jen, welcome to Let's Talk Loyalty.
Thank you for having me.
It's going to be an exciting conversation, Jen.
When I looked at our LinkedIns, I discovered we have 238 people in common,
would you believe?
Only 238? Okay.
Totally crazy.
Yeah, it's a small world in loyalty.
Almost can't believe we haven't met before, but I think we're going to have a
very interesting conversation based on your incredible career and all of the work
you've done for some of the biggest brands in the United States, which you're
going to tell us a bit about.
But before we get into talking about all of these exciting case studies, I
guess,
and I'm going to talk about the future trends.
As you know, I always love to ask my guests about their own personal favorite
loyalty program so that I can get a sense of what you admire both personally
and professionally.
So tell me, Jen, what is your favorite loyalty program?
All right.
So I want to start out by saying that I'm executive platinum on American
Airlines.
Oh, my God.
Wow.
So as I call it, I'm Queen of the Dung Heap.
So, yeah, they are not my favorite loyalty program,
but I think the fact that I am top tier in their program.
Wow.
Oh, yeah.
So my favorite loyalty program is actually hotels.com, which I think would
probably surprise people, but I used to be, I was in Marriott's program for a
long time and I hit top tier, right?
And then I was in Hilton's program and I hit top tier.
And what happened one day was I actually, I woke up in a hotel room and I
couldn't remember where I was.
Oh, no.
Because, right?
And when you travel so much, but the root of the problem was that everything
looks the same.
Yeah.
And so, yeah.
So, and then I just, I was like, you know what?
I have a craving for variety.
And so I actually switched over to hotels.com, which of course has Marriott
properties, Hilton properties, everything.
But I think for me now, because I've traveled so much, I mean, you know,
in your twenties and you think travel is so glamorous.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
And so you went to the hotel room as a treat.
No.
I'm way past that point in my life.
So for me now, it's about finding like a little bit more like the hidden
gems.
And, and because, you know, the way the hotels, hotels.com program is
structured.
It's after 10 visits.
They average your visits and then they give you one night of credit
based on the average of those 10.
Oh, nice.
And so, yeah.
And so for me, you know, it's been wonderful because like the last time I
went to Amsterdam on vacation, I picked just weird, fun, crazy
hotels and my entire hotel side of the vacation was actually covered
by all of my hotels.com nights.
Wow.
Yeah.
So for me, again, I'm using, I'm doing what a lot of business
travelers do.
I take my business travel, right?
Suck it up and then use all the perks, you know, in the travel
programs to actually go on vacation.
Wow.
But I have the same experience, Jen, in terms of first of all,
business travel sounds fabulous.
And I was in Paris, Lisbon and Madrid.
I can't even remember now in October, November and December last year.
And honestly, like I, you know, was exhausted.
I got sick.
I was just like, it wasn't fun because I was there to work hard and
loved the work.
But I totally agree.
And business travelers deserve exceptional rewards.
So it's super interesting to see what hotels.com is doing in terms of
the simplicity.
It sounds like that's actually the most compelling part for you because
of course you could find boutique hotels anywhere if you just went
and did a Google search for any city.
But it's the fact that's that simplicity and you know what to
expect in terms of your rewards.
They also help you with discovery, which I really like.
And so, you know, they'll send out one or two emails a week.
And it's like, you know, the 12 best boutique hotels in New York
City.
Something like that.
Beautiful.
And again, it is, then that's what makes it fun, you know, for when you
travel so much is it's the novelty of it.
And like, so I'm actually getting married this year.
Congratulations.
Thank you.
And we're getting married out of town.
And so every time we go, we stayed at different hotel.
And that's what's actually been kind of fun because we wanted to
state a big variety so that we could recommend to our guests who
are involved.
Basically, everybody's at a different budget level, right?
So we've stayed at three stars, four stars and fives.
And those have actually been kind of fun, you know, because, you know,
you kind of get a certain groove.
And so being able to like, and again, we'd stay for a week.
And so we'd switch hotels and stay at three different properties
during that whole week, you know, while we're down doing the
planning.
But that's what makes it fun, right?
And it's a place of life.
And, you know, and we're in a better position to help, you know,
make recommendations on something that might be, you know,
better fit for certain travelers, you know what I mean?
So yeah, I would totally be coming to you for recommendations.
So that's awesome.
That's me.
That's me.
But also what I like about what you said, Jen, is the power of
content for the discoverability side.
And what I'm starting to hear coming through, and I'm kind of,
you know, teasing it out, I guess, as much as possible.
But there are so many levers that are available to loyalty
professionals.
And we all know about our point surprises, our subscription,
and they're all amazing.
But the differentiator is sometimes the thoughtfulness that a
brand might put in and go, have you thought about going to this
destination or this incredible hotel?
So is that something that you're seeing coming through in your
agency and the client work that you're doing?
You know, what I'm seeing is that there are companies that are
using data very well, and there are companies that aren't.
And for the ones that are using data well, that's where that
differentiated experience is coming through.
And, you know, I mean, it's, you know, some of the best ones out
there are like the beauty brands.
And, you know, for instance, I mean, they can ask you three
questions and can completely basically triangulate you as a
customer, you know, without doing any other work.
And, you know, what they're doing, right, is they're using that
data, you know, to personalize your experience right out of the
gate.
And so I think that's incredibly interesting.
And so they're doing it well, but there's other companies, you
know, because we're loyalty program professionals on my team.
And so we sign up for every program that's out there.
Yeah.
And there's one program in particular where we on purpose,
two of us, we sat side by side and we filled out our profiles and
we did them completely opposite of each other just to see what kind
of marketing we would get and no differentiation.
I mean, it just was like, okay, so, you know, the promise to
consumers, right, is if you give us your data, right, the quid
pro quo is that we will use that data to make your experience more
personalized and more relevant.
And it's some brands is happening, some brands, it's not.
Totally, totally.
So tell us about your background, Jen, how did you fall in love with
this industry that so many of us really do love and feel so
passionately about?
Because I think it gives us a unique opportunity to be loyal to
our customers.
And of course, then there's the commercial benefit, hopefully,
not always, but certainly if we bring professionals in, there
will be.
But how did you get started in this industry?
I will tell you my story, but it's going to totally date me.
Oh, that's okay.
Which is fine.
But so I grew up actually as a very classically trained database
marketer.
And we had a program that we were actually running for, okay,
so again, this is way back, right?
So people who are like under like 35 or not even know what this
is, right?
But we were running a program for the baby bells.
And so this is back when each, you know, like phone system, you
know, was combined to its own state.
You know, this was right when cell phones were just hitting the
scene.
And number portability did not exist at the time.
I mean, all these things, right?
And so I was running the direct mail side of these programs and
then kind of what fell into my lap was the administration of the
loyalty program aspect where we gave points and for usage, right?
So if you were on a better plan, you got more points, you know,
of course, encouraging you to, you know, keep going up the food
chain.
But back when, okay, again, this is where it's like, it's like
stone tablet time here, but it's back when you would sign it for a
plan of minutes, you know, you would bring that amount for
minutes.
And then if you went over, you actually got charged for it, which,
you know, at some point there was that switch where it was like
wait a minute, hold on, we're actually penalizing people for
using our product.
So maybe we need to rethink this, right?
So, but yeah, but so that was my first foray and that was for,
you know, all the, you know, like the AT&T's like all the regional
AT&T's.
And then, you know, as things progressed, then it turned into
it turned into more of a national loyalty program, et cetera.
But at the time, I was contacted by an agency called
Briarly and Partners, which a lot of people know certainly in the
stats.
And they asked me if I would come to Dallas and interview with them,
but they wouldn't tell me what client it was.
And so I had to sign this NDA.
And, but at the time, okay, remember, this is like the mid 90s,
right?
There were not a lot of people who even had loyalty program
experience.
And so what it turned out, it was for Blockbuster.
And so if you remember Blockbuster Awards, that launched way
back, that launched actually, I could tell you the exact date, but
it launched in 1998.
And it was one of the first programs that was out there that
wasn't a travel program, right?
Because you remember, like, you know, all the airlines, all the
hotels had them, but the retailers relatively knew for a.
And so, yeah, so that was, so I was on the team that built
Blockbuster Awards and, yeah, I was 27 years old when that
happened.
And I am now not 27.
Wow.
And most people won't even know the Blockbuster brand I do.
So I think we're of a similar vintage, Jen.
Yeah.
So one of those dead brands on my resume, but there's one left.
There's one left.
I saw that on your profile.
That's incredible.
And then GameStop, I know, was a huge one for you as well.
So tell us about the work you did with them building that very
incredible program.
Yes.
I would say GameStop was the best job that I ever had on the
corporate side.
And it was just, it was such a good match for my personality and
just such a good match for what the business wanted.
And, you know, GameStop at the time, even when I joined GameStop
and that was in 2009, there was a lot of talk that GameStop was
going to be the next Blockbuster, right?
Ironically, that it was going to, you know, go the way of the
dinosaurs.
And so what I had been, what I was brought in to do, my challenge
right was we're going to give you a year to build a best in class
loyalty program.
Wow.
So I was, I will tell you, I interviewed the CEO at the time,
did not want someone like me on T on staff.
Oh, no.
Because he wanted some, he just, he felt, we just put more money
against stores and we'll just keep, we'll just keep building
stores and that will offset this.
And eventually the rest of the senior team was like, no, I
promise you this will be a good thing.
And so I interviewed with, with the then CEO six times.
And finally, I just, I finally said to, you know, the person who
would become my boss, I was like, listen, we just need to fish
or cut bait because I just, I can't keep doing this.
I mean, we've been doing, we've been interviewing for four
months now, right?
Yeah.
It worked out to be the best job I've ever had.
And so what I did was I built a program that was based on our
most profitable activity and a game stop that was selling pre-owned
games.
And so why interesting what we built.
So we built, it's called power of rewards.
Now there's over 40 million people in the program.
Last time I looked.
Yeah.
And so I went global, which was great.
And, you know, when I left, I left after five years and it was,
it was valued.
I mean, again, our, our books were public.
So this is not, not a surprise, but yeah, the auditor's valued
power up rewards is a $250 million asset to the business.
Wow.
And so that was my job for five years.
Yeah.
And I love it because it really did, it changed the way that we did
business because when we started collecting data, right?
And again, for anybody who runs a loyalty program, you know, the
data is the stuff that makes you, it makes you smarter, better,
faster, right?
Sure.
Sure.
And I mean, we were able to use it.
I remember talking to the real estate team and I said, if you
think Google maps changed your life, wait until I show you what
we can do with power up data.
Yeah.
And so for instance, I could take a pin and I could drop it across
the United States and show you where literally every single
member in the program was.
And so, you know, I could come to the real estate team and say
things like, you know, I know you don't think you can put a store
in Tyler, Texas, but you can.
And then based on the number of customers there, what we think
you'll do in sales, we could, we could actually make a square
foot recommendation, you know, like don't get bigger than 700
square feet.
And we could tell you based on the customer how to sort the
store.
And so, you know, because if you had like, for instance, you're
located next to a college, probably a lot more Xbox, a lot more
PlayStation, right?
Yeah.
If you're going to be in a mall and you're right next to, you know,
the Toys R Us, Jim Burrey, you know, the time more Nintendo,
more plush, you know, that kind of stuff.
And so not only were we able to use the loyalty program data to
sort the store more smartly, we were able to do that for our
real estate decisions.
And then we are also able to use that data as well to when we
started to acquire companies, you know, we owned a bunch of
wireless companies, that type of stuff.
Again, this was using our customer data to show like where,
like for instance, like the most tech engaged customers were.
And so, extraordinary, just an extraordinary opportunity for me
as a professional to build something from scratch, because
you hardly ever get to do that.
You know, a lot of us come in and you fix broken things.
But it really, it really was a truly, this is a terrible pun.
It was a game changer for game stuff.
You know, and it was, it was the darling of our earnings calls.
And so to be in that position was great.
And the day that my CEO changed my name plate from, you know,
VP of loyalty to data queen.
And that was, you know, I was like, that's a good thing.
Amazing.
Wow.
So how long, how long did it take him to change his mind,
Jen?
Because if it took six interviews, he was obviously very
resistant.
And I believe that the leadership team won him over.
How long did it take?
Would you say?
I mean, just anecdotally, of course, but, you know,
that's a huge achievement to, to first of all, I suppose,
leverage loyalty data in a commercially valuable way, like
beyond the, the cost center that we're often perceived as,
you know, in terms of giving rewards and all of that kind of
stuff.
But how long would it, would you say it took him to really kind of
go, okay, wow, this is working?
Yeah.
Well, I had a CEO change during my tenure.
Okay.
And the CEO who interviewed me became our chairman of the board.
Okay.
Still kept his office was in the, was there every single day.
And he was a founder of the company.
So just incredibly invested.
And so the CEO who took over was a gentleman named Paul Raines.
And, and he, he was my champion.
And I mean, truly, truly wonderful in terms of the support that I
received.
And for him, he had been at Home Depot and had been a member of
the C suite there.
And so he understood, right?
Yeah.
What this related can do.
Oh, okay.
So yeah, so along with him and, and my boss, who was the CMO at
the time, it just, it was, it was an incredibly supportive
environment.
And they were very open to trying new things.
And it, so just in terms of like my professional success there,
I don't know if I ever went back to the corporate side.
I actually don't know if I could replicate it because just all
the factors were perfect.
Totally, totally.
And that experience of being, as you said, the, the darling of the
investor calls.
I mean, that's pretty special.
Nobody's heard that on this show before.
Yeah.
Well, I will tell you the investment community was very fond of
power up rewards because they could see what was happening.
I will tell you on the flip side, my finance team treated me like
the anti Christ because even though I was generating, right?
Yeah.
I mean, hundreds of millions in just fee revenue, right?
From the paid program.
Yeah.
Of course, it's a points program.
So you're accumulating liability on the books.
Yeah.
And there was one person in particular who would, who always
wanted to let me know that I was responsible, just me, right?
For $65 million of liability on the books.
And then I, I would go, well, I'm just, you know, I'm just a
dumb marketer.
So I would guess though that with the 10 million people who are
paying $15 a year, that feels like more than 65 million.
I'm just in marketing.
So, you know, don't look at me.
Oh, God.
Yeah.
That's their job.
That is their job.
And, yeah.
It's an ongoing challenge.
We're not going to finish.
So fast forward then, Jen, to, to today.
Tell us about the kind of work you do and some of the brands that you
work with.
Sure.
And so I started in San Diego almost eight years ago.
And I started in San Diego after leaving Michael's Arts and
Crafts.
And so Michael's was my job after I left GameStop.
Both companies in Dallas.
And after five years, I feel like I needed, I feel like I could
have done what I could do, right?
Okay.
It was time to move on.
Sure.
And so I started in San Diego and it, I probably, actually, I
probably would have never done it had I not left Michael's.
And the reason why I actually ended up leaving Michael's was that
I had been recruited by the CEO.
And I started without a boss.
And when I did get a boss, he told me in no uncertain terms that
he was not a fan of loyalty programs.
And I was like, Hey, do you know why I'm here?
Like, Hey, do you know why I was recruited to come here?
All things for a reason.
And so I started in San Diego because it's just, it really is.
It is so much fun to immerse with the clients and, and help them,
you know, figure out their issues and solve their problems.
And so, you know, what I like to tell people is that you are
probably experiencing our work and you've been, you may not know it.
And so, you know, we've had a hand in developing pets, smart
treats, but lay rewards.
Our first client was GNC.
So that's a like vitamin supplements retailer here in states.
And I'm so my, my GNC rewards.
That was our first client.
That was the first thing that we did it in San Diego.
So I'm very proud of that.
But I mean, if you're in David Buster's program, you're
experiencing our work.
We just launched a couple of weeks ago, NASCAR fan rewards.
And so, yeah, thank you for that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
So, yeah, so it is, I mean, again, I just, it's, it's always a
pleasure, you know, to be working with brands that people have
heard of, you know, like, Robert and Purina and TGI Fridays,
Ruby Tuesdays, Sally Beauty, JCPenney.
I mean, so it's, you know, again, this, yeah, we got a lot,
we got a lot out there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's why I wanted to talk to you, Jen, I guess, you know,
you know, for this show and this audience, which as you know,
is global.
So, yes, it's predominantly, or let's say, are, you know, 23% of
the audience actually is the number are in the United States.
But we have a lot of listeners in the UK and Australia.
And what I really love for anyone who has, I suppose, that role as,
you know, advisor, consulting and strategy is you truly get a
little bit of a sense of, you know, a lot of, you know, a lot of
people are, you know, a lot of people, you know, a lot of
people who are, you know, a lot of people who are, you know,
a lot of people who are, you know, more than a lot of people
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right up demographics perspective is that these are the folks who are, you know
, coming
into luxury goods about three to five years ahead of where previous generations
were.
And you know, so this is where, you know, you see a lot of people, you know,
again, you
know, the luxury goods, I mean, you're seeing people with Gucci and, you know,
and raise
scarves and live time bags.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
It's quite incredible because certainly when I was 21 to 31, 33, that age
profile
you're talking about, Jen, there was no question that anyone that I even would
have
meshed would be buying a Louis Vuitton or a Gucci or anything.
But I do see it in that age profile.
So so I was fascinated to see your article and to hear that insight that, you
know, that
the fact that there are a lot more, you know, backliving at home and again, I
guess predest,
you know, before we have mortgages, it probably is a good time to actually buy
the fancy hand
bag that you might have hopefully for a long time.
But then what I also love that you pointed out is they also love to actually
buy second
hand.
So it might be that they're going into Dubai mall in our example, but they
might actually
want to buy it on Etsy or eBay or whatever the second hand marketplace is.
So it's almost in some ways a conflict, but at the same time, it's a very
important insight
I think for loyalty marketers to be thinking about.
Oh my gosh, this is the generation that, you know, has grown up with a very
different
mentality, you know, than, you know, I think kind of our generation.
And, you know, as I was talking to a friend of mine about this, it was, you
know, I grew
up, I was in high school in the 80s.
And we all wanted to look the same, you know, I mean, everybody, that was our,
that was a
very conformist mentality.
And we all looked very similar.
We shopped at the same places, you know, and to kind of be outside the norm was
asking,
right, to perhaps be singled out in maybe a good way, not a good way, right?
Yeah, sure.
And this generation, right?
I mean, very much individuals.
And so one of the things that has really taken off, especially during pandemic,
right,
is the rise of second hand shopping.
Yeah.
And there's so many services, you know, certainly like I'm really familiar with
the United
States, but like services like Poshmark, the red up, the real real.
And even as I throw those three out, each of those is hitting a different
demographic,
right?
I mean, threat up is like kind of like your basic goods, Poshmark, maybe in the
middle
with a little bit of luxury thrown in, real real is, is designer stuff.
And, you know, it's, I think they just grew up a really different mentality and
about,
you know, consumption as a whole.
And one of the really interesting things that I had seen, you know, during the
holiday season
was a statistic about pre-pandemic and post about what would be your acceptance
level
of giving a gift that is known to be a second hand gift.
Oh, yeah.
And it went from being 32% acceptable to 57% acceptable.
And so again, when you think about, you know, all of these changes and how this
generation
coming up is very interested in sustainability.
They're very interested in corporate values, making sure that they match their
own.
And, you know, they're not as materialistic.
They are definitely more focused on experiences, but part of their DNA as a
generation is this
whole reuse, recycle, up-cycle type thing.
And that's why second hand has really just taken off like crazy.
Totally.
And what is their attitude towards loyalty programs?
Would you say, Jen, again, you know, given that, you know, we talked about that
their
buying power is very strong in some areas, maybe not as strong in other areas.
So do you see them wanting to engage with our industry?
You know, can we design programs that can effectively, I suppose, really be
personalized
in an effective way?
And I'm thinking specifically about maybe, I think you've got a few beauty
retailers,
perhaps as clients.
And it strikes me that there are certain sectors like that where beauty is a
huge part of what
they expect from a retail branch.
Is that fair to say?
That is fair to say.
Because, you know, again, this is the generation that has grown up with
exchanging data.
But their expectation is that if I give you my data, you must personalize.
And otherwise you've broken the social contract.
And so, you know, again, what I see, and I've got, you know, several people in
my life
who fall into this like 23 to 25 year old, you know, demo, and they're just,
they're just
kind of starting out, right?
You know, just getting their first departments, that type of thing.
And what I see with them, and again, I see this too, you know, in the data and
the surveys
that the industry does, is that they know how to use loyalty programs.
And so for them, they've grown up with them because now they're so ubiquitous,
right?
I mean, you know, when you're dry cleaner and your yogurt shop have dry, have
loyalty
programs, you know, they're everywhere, right?
And with all the POS systems out there, now they're all building in loyalty
components.
So it's very easy, you know what I mean, to scan your check, get points, et c
etera.
So if you're in a restroom, but what I, what we see though, is that they are
not as brand
loyal and pandemic certainly through that, you know, into a kerfuffle for many.
And but this demographic, these younger consumers, they are very, very
interested in the value
proposition of loyalty programs.
And they're very well versed in it, especially, you know, like when they're
getting immediate
benefits.
And so part of the national news this morning, which I thought was incredibly
interesting,
was that Dunkin Donuts, Starbucks, and Chipotle have changed their programs.
And these, these programs are incredibly popular, you know, with people of the
Sage group.
And they're mad because, you know, Starbucks, all of them have switched their,
it costs
more points, right, to get a reward.
And, you know, and it's happening because it's, you know, there's inflation is
happening,
the cost of food is up, the cost of labor is up.
So everything has to change, right?
But what I think it's funny because what the leap that they're not making is,
well,
you're spending more, you know what I mean?
And so, you know, it's happening on a commensurate basis, right?
You're spending more than the points just got, you know, a little bit, you know
, harder
to use, right?
But, yeah, but no, I think it is, this generation was raised on them.
And so they understand how to use them for their own personal benefit.
And so what's happening now, especially the ones, again, this, the Lenio group,
right?
They're so interesting because, you know, they're the ones who understand
exactly how
to get a free coffee out of Starbucks, a free sandwich, a free burrito out of
Chipotle.
And they're using those as part of their daily lives.
And so for them, right, again, for all of us who've built and run programs, it
's a perk
program.
But what's happened is it's become so ingrained in their mentality that now it
's become a,
yeah, I mean, now for them, it's a-
Hi, Gene Factor.
There I say.
Totally.
Totally.
Yes.
But what I do think they do, Jen, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I do think
they then
share and tell each other.
So I think the advocacy is huge.
So it might be, yes, an expensive acquisition cost in terms of getting that
first engagement.
But I guess there is, yeah, huge shareability.
And I think that that's an important insight as well for, you know, again, as
much as they
do want to be different and, you know, not be like us as, you know, or looking
and feeling
the same.
But there is this, like, ability factor where I guess we all want people that
we know and
love to benefit from something that we have enjoyed.
So I do think it works really well.
And the devaluation, I think I'll nearly have to do a whole show just on that
topic,
Jen, because it has happened here as well in Dubai with my, you know, most used
programme
with Emirates Airlines and Skywords.
But in fairness to the team, and certainly in the media, they have explained it
well.
They have talked about the fact that the points have been at the same
redemption level
for 10 years now.
So actually it is important that it does move in line with overall pricing.
And again, in favour of the frequent flyers who, like you, want to be able to
avail.
And they probably have billions of points anyway.
So it's less of an issue for people like that.
So definitely a rapidly shifting market and so much going on.
And just before we finish on that topic, you've reminded me of one of my
favourite blog articles
that Seth Goden wrote.
And I don't know if you know him.
He's a very famous marketeer.
He's certainly inspired me to become a podcaster actually.
But he talked about the next generation.
And because we've come to the end of the alphabet, which I know is the naming
convention
for demographics, he did say that rather than going to Jen A for the next
cohort, that it
would probably or he believes it should be Jen C, C for Covid, C for Carbon, C
for Climate,
C for Community.
And I thought that's genius.
So there is a lot going on that we love talking about, of course, and really
want to stay connected
to.
So thank you for your insights on the zylenials.
I'll make sure that we link to that article in our show notes for this episode.
So let's talk about live shopping, Jen, because this is something that I've
been fascinated
by just for a couple of years now.
Well, actually, probably before that, the whole home shopping thing, we didn't
really
have it in Ireland, but I know it was huge in the US.
And I was always like, I loved watching it.
I don't know why.
But it seems that lots of people, and I don't know, again, the demographics,
but in terms
of retail behavior, it seems that there's plenty of opportunity for, I suppose,
hosted
product demonstrations, which are broadcast on either social media or
specifically within
mobile applications, I'm guessing.
I think you mentioned one particularly that seemed to be taking off.
But tell us a bit about what are you hearing about this live shopping trend?
Sounds super exciting.
It is.
It's the next evolution, right?
And I think when it first came on the scene, and it certainly was happening
before COVID,
that I think people are a little bit skeptical about it.
But all of a sudden, when you can't go shopping anymore, and our lives turned a
little bit
more inward and it went online, I mean, live stream shopping, oh my gosh, talk
about of
the moment.
And it's interesting because, so as we watch, certainly we watch a lot of
beauty brands,
we saw over the last, oh my gosh, probably 10 years, that marketing kind of rat
cheted
down and community reviews started coming up because it was, you know what, you
want
to find someone who looks like you, same age, et cetera, and they're
recommending products
to you, they're writing reviews.
And it's this distrust of brands and especially marketing where they're like, n
ope, nope,
you're just feeding me messages that you want to feed me, but when you read
reviews right
from the community, that gives you some sense of comfort, right?
I mean, that's why, like when you look at like, you know, eBay, right, you get
these
verified reviewers.
So, you know, the person actually bought the product, but they're not just
being paid
to show.
And so I think live stream shopping was the next evolution of this because, you
know,
and again, for someone who's not, you know, well versed in it, I mean, this is
where brands
are using this to promote and sell products through, you know, their digital
platforms,
right?
So, like most of the shows and that type of thing.
And you know, the aim, of course, is to provide consumers with that immersive
experience, immersive
and interactive experience because you can ask questions, you know what I mean?
Like someone, you know, is talking about like, well, how does the jacket fit in
your shoulders,
you know what I mean?
Or, you know, does screen make you feel dry, you know, all those types of
things, you know,
I mean, and that's where, you know, you're encouraged, of course, to buy, you
know, during
the live stream.
I think, you know, again, as we, you know, were denied social interaction and
being able,
for instance, to go to a store, right?
And try something on.
This is the next best thing.
Totally.
And we had one amazing example, Jen, and I will get them back on the show.
It was two years ago.
And exactly to your point, it was a COVID requirement and it was in China.
And actually it was the duty free and like our dare, pardon me, is the
pronunciation
of the company.
But the actual airport remained open, even though flights were not flying, it
was kind
of bonkers.
But again, they have all of these beautiful branded products.
They have highly trained staff and they were standing around with nothing to do
And they started and bizarrely they had an Excel spreadsheet apparently with
the loyalty
programme, which is a little bit terrifying.
But they started this live shopping.
Now, I know China does everything in a very different way, but it really
inspired me.
And it certainly sounds like they were probably ahead of the US.
It sounds like with this particular behaviour.
But for me, I actually think it's super enjoyable to shop in this way.
And I've no doubt that there's loyalty programmes, again, who are listening to
this show, who
will find that a very appealing idea.
You know, like connect and actually, you know, maybe there's points involved,
of course,
with the purchase.
And I did see a great example recently.
It wasn't quite live shopping, but it was a different way of using loyalty
through social
media.
And it was a 10 minute TikTok, which had Hilton Honours points if you watched
until the end.
And I mean, it was just unbelievable.
I talked about it on another show.
I've been so taken with it.
Paris Hilton was in it.
And just as a loyalty expert, I thought it was genius that I actually said,
okay, I'll
take your challenge.
I'll spend 10 minutes, you know, it's going to be fun.
And it was brilliant production, of course, as you can imagine.
But this is the way I think loyalty programmes have to go, like beyond, you
know, as I said,
at the beginning, the subscription programmes and the points programmes and the
basics, you
know, it has to be more engaging.
Otherwise, people won't stick with it anymore.
So for you getting Hilton Honours points out of it, that is a tactic that we
see, right?
That's coming up through loyalty programmes, which, you know, has been coined,
learned,
turned.
And it is, yeah, just sitting through, you know, like a video, something like
that.
You know, this is where, I mean, if you want to talk about, you know, trends in
loyalty
programme design, I mean, gamification is finally having its moment right in a
big
way.
It has evolved beyond the open up the app and it's the spin to win.
Okay, no, it's not that anymore, right?
You see that, but it's not that anymore, right?
But it's really, it's about engagement.
It's about experiential elements.
And it's about exclusives.
And I mean, and the fact that, you know, now that we've definitely gone to a
much more
mobile forward world, I mean, that is the stuff that, you know, programmes are
getting,
are putting out there to get you to engage because, like I said earlier, right?
I mean, loyalty programmes have become ubiquitous.
And so what is your stand for, right?
How are you going to be different and make your programme sticky?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And I like that term, learn to earn as well, Jen, because we all know that the
traditional
transactional earn and burn.
And I can only imagine the complexity.
I'm sure your team there in Incentio are probably, you know, busy doing
business cases around
how do you justify incentivising behaviour, which is not related to a
transaction.
But do you have any kind of comment around that?
Is that something that brands are open to hearing about?
Or they've been shocked when you suggest that you reward something that doesn't
involve
them, you know, the member spending money with you?
No, I mean, I'd like, like, for instance, NASCAR fan rewards, which we just
launched
at the beginning of this month.
It's an engagement programme.
And I mean, there's certainly there's transactional elements in it, for
instance, like we'd love
to see you go to a race.
But you are being rewarded in the exact same point value if you buy a grand
stand ticket
or a suite.
And it's just more about, you know, engaging with the brand, just immersing,
you know,
in that culture and, you know, in finding more ways to engage with the sport as
a whole.
So, you know, again, we've looked hard for examples to benchmark, you know,
when we were
building the programme.
And we literally couldn't find any, you know, that was just as pure of an
engagement play
as we possibly could make it.
Because, you know, the reason for NASCAR is that, you know, we built this
programme for
the casual fan.
And you know, for the person who may not be able to attend a race, either
financially
or geographically.
And so it's meant to be a programme that you can enjoy at home, you know,
watching races
from home, but also, you know, things like playing NASCAR fantasy by, you know,
answering
quiz questions by, you know, just looking at what, you know, their foundation
pages and
what they do for their charitable works.
And I mean, there's, there's, there's a ton of ways to earn points that
actually don't
involve spending money.
And again, that's very, very purposeful because we want you to, you know,
engage and
start to really love, you know, NASCAR as a sport.
Absolutely.
And there's one great example, Jen.
We had them on the show.
It's in South Africa, totally different sector.
But again, with this genius insight around, you know, wanting to be actually of
service,
depending on what that looks like.
But it's a bank in South Africa called Old Mutual and they have financial
education.
And you do get loyalty points if you watch their videos and learn about their
products.
And you don't even have to be a customer of the bank.
It's quite extraordinary.
And it's part, partly a, a CSOR initiative.
And again, it's just a wonderful way to say, look, if these people ever do
decide that
they're ready to take a bank account, they're going to take it with us because
we've taken
care of them.
So I think that's absolutely wonderful.
So definitely be excited to hear more about NASCAR awards as and when.
But listen, the final topic I wanted to ask you about in terms of these trends
was, I
think what you described as a movement for the book industry and the book talk.
So tell our listeners all around this huge trend, which I had never heard of
before.
Yeah.
So I got interested in a book talk, which is again, you know, because we're,
you know,
you're listening to this, it's hashtag book B O O K T O K. It is the book
platform of
TikTok.
And so we have a, we work with books a million and second and Charles, which
are booksellers
here in States.
And as we were getting engaged with them, you can't avoid book talk.
And so I went to Barnes and Noble, I went to half price books, I went to books
a million.
And every bookstore out there has a book talk section.
And it is because it is, it's almost like, again, the younger generation has
discovered
hard, but like actual physical books, right?
Wow.
And I can say again, you know, part of what we're seeing a little bit as a
backlash against
screens, but that's a, that's a whole different topic.
But, you know, certainly during pandemic, I had to laugh because, you know, one
of the
folks that I spoke with for the article that I wrote for Forbes was about, you
know, what
are you seeing with book talk?
And they're like, okay, like sales of books that have been around forever.
Like there's a book called the notebook, right?
And it is, they've actually made a movie out of it.
I mean, the book has been around for, I want to say 20 something years, maybe
even longer
than that.
And the, the younger generation, like for them, it's the process of discovery
and the
notebook was recommended, and it has become, you think, like I can't keep it on
shelves,
right?
And it's not a, it's not a recently published book, right?
So, you know, you're getting it like secondhand, but you know, there's a lot of
authors out
there, you know, one being a woman named Colleen Hoover.
And her, I think she owes her, her career to book talk because she was a rather
, rather
prolific writer before, but book talk has, I mean, if you go to any of the
displays or
any of the tables and any of the bookstores, you know, I would say fully,
probably 30 to
50% of the books on the table are hers and they're her back catalog.
And so, but you know, the big piece of this is that it's all about discovery.
And with book talk, you know, people are making recommendations to each other.
And this is where no amount of marketing from Colleen Hoover's PR team is going
to, is going
to cause this spike, you know, in the book chains across the country, you know,
and,
I mean, she had a book come out towards the tail end of pandemic that just that
hit like
crazy.
And it was like, I was in New York City on the subway and all I saw was this,
this certain
book by her called Verity.
And I was like, that's crazy.
It was in my bag too.
So I was just, you know, I was like, this is crazy.
But yeah, no, so the book talk, I think what it does, it taps in against that
thrill of
discovery and recommendations by your peer group.
And so that again, like what I, you know, talked about duty, right?
It is having someone who feels authentic to you and who has a real voice,
making recommendations
for things they may think you're like, not because they're getting paid for it.
You know, I mean, are compensated.
And I love the fact that actually it closes the loop with the real world.
And in a way, that's, that's, I suppose more appealing than purely, you know,
the beauty
industry where it can be, you know, I suppose a little bit superficial, it
feels sometimes.
But actually, you know, people getting excited about books is quite inspiring,
you know.
And I know there was one actually, we talked to our fair actually a couple of
weeks ago
about the peppers and Rogers book, which also I think was very close to your
heart.
And would you believe I've never read it, Jen?
I felt so bad when I was realizing that.
So I'm going to go and order that.
I know it was one of the original loyalty classics.
So just as a final comment, do you want to mention that book?
Because I know it was really an important part of your journey in loyalty.
Sure.
So there was a duo that was kind of at the forefront of our industry, Don
peppers and
Martha Rogers.
And they put out a book, oh my gosh, I got to say it's got to be the mid 90s,
at least,
right?
And it's called the one to one future.
And it was at the time incredibly revolutionary because they talked about, you
know, being
able to walk into your local coffee shop and your drink would be waiting for
you, right?
Because they know you.
And one of the examples I thought it was kind of crazy was like going through a
car wash,
right?
Where you put in like, you know, your phone number and they know exactly what
you want
for your car, you know what I mean?
Whether it's, you know, the triple coat, whatever, you know what I mean?
Or, you know, like an extra pass with a dryer, whatever, right?
But that that you'd already know, right?
And so it was all about using customer data to be known, to be recognized and
to personally
personalize your experiences.
And I read this as a fledgling database marketer, right?
You know, in the 90s.
And I thought this is what I want to do for my career because, you know, I mean
, the sexy
stuff right in the 80s was, I mean, working for an ad agency, you know, to me
to have
like a big account like Coke or Budweiser, you know, whatever.
And for me, it was definitely about the one to one.
And so actually I did have a chance to meet John Peppers and I said to him,
your book
changed the course of my career.
And I met that, you know, very sincerely.
And apparently a lot of people have said that to him.
And, but it just, it really did because again, as I got into loyalty programs,
you know,
administration soon thereafter, right, running, you know, the phone companies
programs, it's
true because I mean, that that's where, you know, that's what makes us
responsive as
humans and as consumers is when you feel like something's being recommended to
you, you
know, that is personalized.
It is relevant to your situation.
And it feels like a good match, right?
And I mean, and that's the magic.
That's the magic of marketing, you know, where, you know, some people would
call that manipulative.
I call that opportunistic and damn delightful in most instances.
Well I'm going with magic marketing, Jen.
I think that's perfect.
So listen with those fabulous words.
I don't have any more questions, Jen.
Are there any other, I suppose, big insights that you feel are important to
mention to
our audience of loyalty marketing professionals around the world as we wrap up?
I actually read this on a billboard the other day and I thought it was
incredibly relevant.
And it says, you don't learn anything by talking.
Interesting.
Okay.
And so, you know, again, as, you know, some days I think, you know, you think
you know
the path, but as I always, you know, recommend to our clients, probably one of
the best things
that you can do is not only talk to the people in the field, right, who
represent your brand,
but also talk to your customers because I think the answers that we all seek
are out
there.
Sure.
And, you know, if you know where to look, but, you know, again, as I always
said to my
team, you know, I said, get out, get out of the building, you know, because you
're not
learning anything sitting in your cube, you know, go out there and experience
the world
and see what customers are actually really doing.
Fantastic.
So listen, Jen, where can people find you if they want to reach out, they want
to connect.
Where's the best place for them to contact you?
Sure.
Well, so of course we have a website, right?
We are, we are legit business.
So everybody has a website and ours is insendioworks.com.
And the word insendio means fire in Spanish.
But if you are a Harry Potter fan, you will also recognize that as the spell
for making
fire.
And so, yeah, so insendioworks is our web address, but I'm also pretty active
on LinkedIn as
well.
And so I'm pretty easy to find under Jen McMillan.
Fantastic.
And we make sure, of course, to link to you as well in the show notes.
So Jen McMillan, founder and chief accelerant at insendio.
Thank you so much from Let's Talk Loyalty.
Thank you.
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